20PT633R01 slanted picture


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20PT633R01 slanted picture

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Goofy
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Oct 6, 2013, 9:35 PM

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20PT633R01 slanted picture	Can't Post

Hi folks. I've got a Philips 20PT633R01 CRT TV. It works fine but the picture is a bit slanted. It's a bit slight but noticable when horizontal things are displayed. Today I also noticed a few scanlines near the top were offset horizontally, but I'm not sure if that was the TV or the game system doing that.

Does this sound like something that can be fixed with some sort of service mode or is it likely a bad capacitor or other component?

Thanks in advance for any advice.

Ron.M
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Oct 7, 2013, 1:44 AM

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Re: [Goofy] 20PT633R01 slanted picture [In reply to]	Can't Post

Goofy;.....

This is not a big deal to fix...

How much electronic/TV repair background experience do you have ????

Quote

Today I also noticed a few scanlines near the top were offset horizontally, but I'm not sure if that was the TV or the game system doing that.

More better info/explanation would help...
Did the scan lines disappear when you go to cable &/or over the air channels ???
Are they still there ???

Quote

Does this sound like something that can be fixed with some sort of service mode or is it likely a bad capacitor or other component?

NO , no & no !!!
It most likely is a physical adjustment easily done if you can follow simple instructions....

Later...Ron.M... Cool

...
Veteran & Retired TV technician

jts1957
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Oct 7, 2013, 4:05 AM

Post #3 of 44 (4522 views)
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Re: [Goofy] 20PT633R01 slanted picture [In reply to]	Can't Post

Quote

Today I also noticed a few scanlines near the top were offset horizontally

Since 'scanlines' are displayed on the CRT screen as horizontal stripes, unless there is a reference mark on a particular line, how would viewer be able to discern that one (or more) lines were offset horizontally (also known as 'to the left' or 'to the right' of the reference mark)? Angelic

-------------------------
Location: Far, Far Away

Goofy
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Oct 7, 2013, 1:13 PM

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Re: [Ron.M] 20PT633R01 slanted picture [In reply to]	Can't Post

Thanks for the replies!

Ron: I do have some hobbyist electronics experience, so if it's just a matter of adjusting some pots or something I should be able to do it. I at least know enough not to get myself killed with HV ;)

jts & Ron: I'll investigate further tonight, but it sorta looked like this:
------========
----=========
---==========
--===========
-============
=============
=============
=============

The picture for some of the scanlines started late on the first few lines (I don't think they were the TOP scanlines, just the first lines that had any image) and it gradually corrected after about 5 lines or so. I think it may have gone further right too, which is why I said horizontally offset. Not sure what to call it, but it looked like the top was bent to the right. It's from an older model game system so I'm not positive it's the TV yet. I'll check more when I get home.
The slanting is definitely a problem that's existed for a long time. I hadn't used this set in a while until yesterday and I've been getting into minor electronics repairs recently so I decided to give it a shot at fixing this guy! Hope you fellows can help :)

jts1957
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Oct 7, 2013, 1:22 PM

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Re: [Goofy] 20PT633R01 slanted picture [In reply to]	Can't Post

Look up 'flagging.' More usually applies to video tape picture. Wink

-------------------------
Location: Far, Far Away

Ron.M
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Oct 7, 2013, 6:26 PM

Post #6 of 44 (4508 views)
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Re: [Goofy] 20PT633R01 slanted picture [In reply to]	Can't Post

Goofy;....

Need an answer to this;=>...

Quote

Did the scan lines disappear when you go to cable &/or over the air channels ???

Remove or disconnect "game system"...

Still unclear as to what the "scanlines near the top" actually are....
Could be one of a few possibilities...
Do they change when the TV is on for awhile ???..
Can you take & post a pix ???...

Does the pix slant the same from left to right at the top & at the same rate at the bottom of the pix ???
Does the customer menu slant the same way ???..

Thanks....

Later...Ron.M.... Cool

...
Veteran & Retired TV technician

Goofy
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Oct 7, 2013, 10:28 PM

Post #7 of 44 (4497 views)
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Re: [Ron.M] 20PT633R01 slanted picture [In reply to]	Can't Post

jts: Yeah, I was thinking "VCR" in my memory although now that I've looked at it closer I don't think flagging is the right way to decribe it as it is more gradual. Thanks for the terminology though!

Ron: I believe I've answered all your questions in the following list of facts as well as providing all the details I could. Hope this helps!

* Slanting

- both OSD and video have the slanting effect

- I describe the slanting as follows: each line droops as it is drawn left to right, dropping a few lines by the time it reaches the right side of the screen. The slant angle appears to be about the same throughout the entire screen whereever measured.

* Shifted lines

- the top scanlines start 3 or 4 pixels "late". There are about 4 blanks pixels before the video starts. This occurs even without the game system.

-The lower a scanline is on the screen the further left it starts until the "late start" effect diminishes completely at about 60% of the way down.

- All pixels on the right side have picture in them. A few columns of video are missing. (I'm testing with a game so the picture is static and I know that a few columns of game border aren't being displayed that should be there)

- my test case has some white on black text that exhibits "blurring" at the top but not at the bottom. By that I mean instead of pure white you get white with blue/red "hazing" on either side. Lower down on the screen the text is pure white = the effect lessens the lower on the screen you get. This correlates with the shifted scanlines so it might be related.

It's been running for 45 mintues or so and none of the above effects have changed that I can tell. I know from experience that the slanting doesn't go away with time as I'm more familiar with that problem.

Let me know if you need any more explanation. I'll try to take a pic but all I've got is this old camera don't know if it still works. Wrost comes to worst I can draw you a pic ;)

Thanks!

Ron.M
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Oct 7, 2013, 11:03 PM

Post #8 of 44 (4489 views)
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Re: [Goofy] 20PT633R01 slanted picture [In reply to]	Can't Post

Goofy;....

NO offense , but , I hope this thread doesn't go the way of your name !!!!

Slanting;..
Thanks , that clears up some of this...
Problem #1 should be an easy fix...

Shifted lines;....
NEVER in my 50+ years of servicing TVs did I hear or see the word "pixels" used in the same sentence relating to CRT TV !!!!

Due to the info you just provided , we can rule out the "game system" as the culprit...
We can also rule out a thermal problem...
(Progress !!)

Quote

I've got is this old camera don't know if it still works. Wrost comes to worst I can draw you a pic ;)

IF you have a "Brownie Hawkeye" or a "Polaroid Land" camera , forget it...
You will need a digital camera & upload the pix to a website to post the pix on a thread here...
If you need help with posting pix here , just ask...
It's really easy....

I WILL need to see pix of the "scanlines"....
Try to take good , clear & in focus pix...
I need pix with video & pix without video...
PLEASE , NO drawings...
Picasso , Rembrandt & other artists are dead...
THANKS...

Later...Ron.M... Cool

..
Veteran & Retired TV technician

(This post was edited by Ron.M on Oct 7, 2013, 11:09 PM)

Goofy
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Oct 7, 2013, 11:40 PM

Post #9 of 44 (4482 views)
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Re: [Ron.M] 20PT633R01 slanted picture [In reply to]	Can't Post

Quote

NEVER in my 50+ years of servicing TVs did I hear or see the word "pixels" used in the same sentence relating to CRT TV !!!!

I was referring to the columns of red/green/blue lines. What is the proper term?

I took these before dinner. The top and the bottom. You can see how the distance from the edge differs.

By "no video" do you mean blank screen or power off? I'm not sure I have enough resolution to get the actual scanlines to appear with this camera, but I'll try to take some better shots.

http://i43.tinypic.com/vywhtk.jpg

http://i40.tinypic.com/29smbt.jpg

Thanks for your help!

Crazy

<- Goofy

edit I tried a few more shots but they didn't turn out any better :( The no video shots didn't show anything at all. Just black. Both blank and off. Oh well...

edit 2 I removed the inline images since they were blowing out the margins :|

(This post was edited by Goofy on Oct 8, 2013, 12:41 AM)

jts1957
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Oct 8, 2013, 1:56 AM

Post #10 of 44 (4473 views)
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Re: [Goofy] 20PT633R01 slanted picture [In reply to]	Can't Post

http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/tv6.htm

All I see is blur. Smile

-------------------------
Location: Far, Far Away

(This post was edited by jts1957 on Oct 8, 2013, 1:57 AM)

Ron.M
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Oct 8, 2013, 6:07 PM

Post #11 of 44 (4462 views)
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Re: [Goofy] 20PT633R01 slanted picture [In reply to]	Can't Post

Goofy;.....

You missed something;=>...

Quote

Try to take good , clear & >> IN -FOCUS << pix...

I'm not even going to try to guess what the hell those pix are...
Next time you take pix , ask yourself what would Jesus see !!!!..

Quote

I was referring to the columns of red/green/blue lines. What is the proper term?

IF you can take "good , clear & >> IN -FOCUS << pix , I'll try to give you a name...
IF necessary , borrow a better camera...

Quote

I took these before dinner. The top and the bottom. You can see how the distance from the edge differs.

NOT me , maybe Jesus can !!!..

Quote

By "no video" do you mean blank screen or power off? I'm not sure I have enough resolution to get the actual scanlines to appear with this camera, but I'll try to take some better shots.

By "no video" , I mean with the TV on & on an active channel with the antenna/cable disconnected..

Quote

edit 2 I removed the inline images since they were blowing out the margins :|

Try saving them as JPEG/JPG next time & see how they work out or resize them at "tinypic"...

Later...Ron.M.... Cool

...
Veteran & Retired TV technician

(This post was edited by Ron.M on Oct 8, 2013, 6:10 PM)

t0nito
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Oct 8, 2013, 8:54 PM

Post #12 of 44 (4452 views)
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Re: [Ron.M] 20PT633R01 slanted picture [In reply to]	Can't Post

I think he means as if a computer monitor had the parallel adjustment misaligned:

Hope you like my photoshop skills as the image on the screen is fabricated.

Something like this:

Instead of this:

Goofy
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Oct 8, 2013, 11:06 PM

Post #13 of 44 (4444 views)
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Re: [t0nito] 20PT633R01 slanted picture [In reply to]	Can't Post

Yes, that's exactly right t0nito.

I tried again. I don't think I can get much better, but here are the no-video shots. In this first pic it looks like it's doing the same thing on the right edge but that's just because it was slightly tilted when I took the pic. The left side is real though. You can sorta see the slanting on top too.

Here is the top left corner again with no video

Bottom left. It has straightened out!

Sorry if these aren't good enough, but there's no way this camera can show the individual phospors. :(

The blue/red "hazing" effect photos came out pretty good though. Do you need to see that?

Thanks again. Crazy

t0nito
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Oct 8, 2013, 11:34 PM

Post #14 of 44 (4440 views)
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Re: [Goofy] 20PT633R01 slanted picture [In reply to]	Can't Post

If you have any means (dvd player with usb input, etc) to display a jpg of a test card on the screen would probably make it easier to help further.

Based on your images it seems it's a pincushion/barrel problem or adjustment looking at the 4 corners, like it's "barrelling" only it's not so noticeable on the lower left corner like this:

Now I know I'm not giving any technical advice, but I hope it helps to clarify what the problem is.

EDIT: reading it more carefully, what you said is it is only affecting the top left corner like this:

(This post was edited by t0nito on Oct 8, 2013, 11:52 PM)

Ron.M
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Oct 9, 2013, 12:33 AM

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Re: [t0nito] 20PT633R01 slanted picture [In reply to]	Can't Post

t0nito & Goofy;.....

OK , here's the deal....

What we're trying to do here is determine EXACTLY what the slants are....
The reason is that IF the slants run in the SAME direction in the SAME amount from left to right , the fix is a mechanical adjustment...

HOWEVER;....
IF it is ANY of the below symptom(s) , he (Goofy) is dead in the water as those adjustments are in the Factory Menu that I WILL NOT recommend he do;=>...

From the Service manual for his TV ^^^^...

So folks , it's now your call...
Care to pick one or more that fit ???

He (Goofy) now has THREE problems , 2 of which that may be out of his reach...
#1;..The slanting...
#2;..The "scanlines...(Which may be a vertical problem)
#3;.."blurring" &/or blue/red "hazing" that may be a bad degaussing thermistor...

Two surprises...
#2 & #3...

Goofy;...

Quote

The blue/red "hazing" effect photos came out pretty good though. Do you need to see that?

ABSOLUTELY !!!!

Later...Ron.M... Cool

..
Veteran & Retired TV technician

Goofy
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Oct 9, 2013, 1:13 AM

Post #16 of 44 (4420 views)
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Re: [Ron.M] 20PT633R01 slanted picture [In reply to]	Can't Post

New information!!!!

While it's true that the left edge isn't straight with no video present, I know believe that it's just that the phosphor lines aren't vertical. Why? Because I took another look and I realized that ALL the phosphors are illuminated with no video present. I didn't realize this before.

WITH video, the left edge is more dramatic because at the top it skips about 4 phosphors before it starts (gradually decreasing until we hit about 60% of the screen height).

WITHOUT video all phosphors are illuminated. The left edge still isn't straight as you can see in the photo but it's not as much. Might be that mechanical thing you were talking about.

So I thought it mihgt be the game system but I hooked it up to a Sony and it doesn't have that problem. Unless I just can't see it on the Sony due to horizontal overscan not showing it on that TV. ???

Also, the right edge being cut off that I mentioned is also occuring on the Sony so that's moot. Same thing with the hazing -- I think that might just be a composite video artifact.

Here it is anyway:

versus this lower down

but again that happens on the Sony too, although not as much

So maybe the slanting is indeed a mechanical cause. Honestly, I can live with the left edge problem if the drooping can be fixed. Maybe adjusting the horizontal position can move the left edge problem away?

Please digest this new info and give me your professional opinions!!

Crazy

edit: before you ask, the drooping does NOT occur on the Sony. That's definitely a real problem with the Philips. (I'm calling the original slanting problem "drooping" now to distinguish it from the "left edge" problem, which I'm now calling "left edge problem", since they're both kind of slanting)

edit2:
Ron - for the left edge problem, #11 MIGHT apply if the right part is hidden by #5. I'm guessing thats a bad idea on my part? Wink

None of those pictures seem to have the drooping problem, oddly. Is it a mechanical problem?

edit3:
Looking at the TV with no-video again I see that the top edge phosphors are also all illuminated and the scanlines themselves seem to be drooping. It kinda looks similar to the left edge in fact! I vote for mechanical issue. (Well, that still doesn't explain the skipped phosphors when video is present though...)

Well that's it for me for today. but I'm pretty excited that this can be fixed or at least improved now!

(This post was edited by Goofy on Oct 9, 2013, 2:07 AM)

t0nito
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Oct 9, 2013, 7:30 AM

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I think it's odd to see a crt tv with no overscan anyway...

Ron.M
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Oct 9, 2013, 5:54 PM

Post #18 of 44 (4393 views)
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Goofy;.....

Quote

Try to take good , clear & >> IN -FOCUS << pix...

What part of this do you not understand ????
Until you post "CLEAR , IN-FOCUS pix , I'm not going any further with this....

Later...Ron.M..... Cool

...
Veteran & Retired TV technician

jts1957
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Oct 9, 2013, 6:15 PM

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Re: [Ron.M] 20PT633R01 slanted picture [In reply to]	Can't Post

Now, Ron. Take another Valium and concentrate on your happy place.

-------------------------
Location: Far, Far Away

(This post was edited by jts1957 on Oct 9, 2013, 6:19 PM)

t0nito
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Oct 9, 2013, 7:49 PM

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If Goofy's camera is like mine he's out of luck. I have 2 cameras and both suck at macro mode.

Goofy
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Oct 9, 2013, 10:18 PM

Post #21 of 44 (4379 views)
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Re: [Ron.M] 20PT633R01 slanted picture [In reply to]	Can't Post

Do ANY of those pictures show hope?? This camera doesn't really have any controls so there isn't much I can do...

I could try using the flash or increasing the amount of ambient light. Maybe set the camera on a flat surface...? That's all I can think of to improve the picture...

Unsure

Goofy
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Oct 9, 2013, 10:47 PM

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I tried using the flash. Are any of these any good? The pic slanting seems to be a problem with my camera -- both it and the TV were on level surfaces. If I had Photoshop I might could correct it. Paint won't do the job. I don' t think the flash will help much with the extreme close-up pics. I tried one of those and got nothing but white.

(This post was edited by Goofy on Oct 9, 2013, 10:52 PM)

Ron.M
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Oct 9, 2013, 10:52 PM

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IF anyone can figure out what Goofy is talking about & determine what the hell is in those bad pix , BE MY GUEST !!!!

Goofy;...

Quote

IF necessary , borrow a better camera...

Give serious thought to that suggestion !!!

Quote

The blue/red "hazing" effect photos came out pretty good though. Do you need to see that?

ABSOLUTELY !!!!

PLEASE someone tell us what is in those pix !!!
I have NO clue as to what "hazing" you are talking about...

I have an old digital Kodak camera that will blow any of your pix away...
So I'd STRONGLY recommend you get a better camera...

Later...Ron.M.... Cool

..
Veteran & Retired TV technician

(This post was edited by Ron.M on Oct 10, 2013, 12:01 AM)

Ron.M
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Oct 9, 2013, 10:56 PM

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Goofy...
Those 4 pix you just posted seem better...
Can you retake them with video & without the flash???

Thanks... Sly

..

Later...Ron.M... Cool

...
Veteran & Retired TV technician

(This post was edited by Ron.M on Oct 9, 2013, 10:57 PM)

Goofy
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Oct 9, 2013, 11:04 PM

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Re: [Ron.M] 20PT633R01 slanted picture [In reply to]	Can't Post

I'll try but I'll have to rig up some additional lighting to compensate for the lack of flash. I think that's why some of the other pics were so bad. I can see fine but my camera's eyes ain't so good. Crazy

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