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dgentry516
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Dec 11, 2010, 10:56 PM

Post #26 of 84 (1584 views)
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Re: [Ron.M] Need Ron M [In reply to]	Can't Post

Ron,

Sorry for the oversized pics. Was just trying to be clear on this end.

HOT-Ground 129.5
Collect-Ground 129.4
Base-Ground 2.98
Emitter-Ground 0.00

Replaced the IC101 because I read from another message that was my problem. I still have the original one. I can put it back. The new one I ordered from MCMElectronics.

Thanks again Ron

Ron.M
Veteran

Dec 11, 2010, 11:38 PM

Post #27 of 84 (1579 views)
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Re: [dgentry516] Need Ron M [In reply to]	Can't Post

dgentry516;.....

There's a problem with those readings....
IF the base voltage is +2.98 vdc , then the collector volts should be less than 129.4 vdc...
IF it's -2.98 , then everything's hunky dory...
Post what it is....
Go to pin 23 on IC101 & check the dc volts there....
Lets check ALL these volts this way....Including^^^..
Unplug the TV for about 5 mins....
This allows it to reset itself & let that 130 vdc dwindle down a bit.....
Have your meter hooked up to a check point where you want to read a voltage...
Plug the set in ....
Note what your meter reads....
Turn the TV on....
Note what the meter reads....
Repeat this for each voltage...
Unplug it, wait , plug it in & take reading...
Post new readings....
Be absolutely CERTAIN you are using the tuner case as ground....

Quote

Sorry for the oversized pics. Was just trying to be clear on this end.

I appreciate VERY much what you are trying to do....
Try the method I posted next time you want to post a pix....

Leave the new IC in for now...
We'll decide on it later.....THANKS.... Sly

....

Have fun.... Wink

....

Good Luck.... Sly

....

Later...Ron.M.... Cool

....
Veteran & Retired TV technician

dgentry516
New User

Dec 12, 2010, 3:06 AM

Post #28 of 84 (1569 views)
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Re: [Ron.M] Need Ron M [In reply to]	Can't Post

As you requested,

Base -1.86 -- turn on --> -2.61
Collector 93.4 -- turn on --> 129.5
Pin 23 .435 --turn on --> 4.34

Thanks Ron

Ron.M
Veteran

Dec 12, 2010, 4:17 AM

Post #29 of 84 (1565 views)
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Re: [dgentry516] Need Ron M [In reply to]	Can't Post

dgentry516;.....

Those readings make sense....THANKS.... Sly

.....

Remove & check Q401....
Please give me ohms reading numbers....
C-e , C-b , etc....

Have a GREAT evening..... Sly

....
See ya Sun.....

Later...Ron.M....
Veteran & Retired TV technician

jts1957
Veteran

Dec 12, 2010, 7:09 AM

Post #30 of 84 (1562 views)
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Re: [Ron.M] Need Ron M [In reply to]	Can't Post

Quote

See ya Sun.....

I doubt "you are his father." Wink

-------------------------
Location: Far, Far Away

(This post was edited by jts1957 on Dec 12, 2010, 7:11 AM)

dgentry516
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Dec 12, 2010, 3:19 PM

Post #31 of 84 (1555 views)
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Re: [Ron.M] Need Ron M [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hey Ron

Q401

Base (red probe) - Collector (black probe) 12.77
Base (black probe) - Collector (red probe) 0.L

Collector (red probe) - Emitter (black probe) 0.L
Collector (black probe) - Emitter (red probe) 0.L

Base (red probe) - Emitter (black probe) 19.50
Base (black probe) - Emmiter (red probe) 0.L

Looks good?

Ron.M
Veteran

Dec 12, 2010, 6:48 PM

Post #32 of 84 (1552 views)
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Re: [dgentry516] Need Ron M [In reply to]	Can't Post

jts1957;....

Quote

See ya Sun....

Since it's spelled Sun , that means today....
IF it were spelled Son , I "may" have some scattered around the globe that I'm not aware of..... Sly

....

dgentry516;....

IF you saw an "M" or a "K" or nada on the meter after the 12.77 & 19.50 , post what you saw...
When you did those voltage checks , did you hear a click from the relay as you did before ????.....
How long did the NTE sub last before it crashed ????...
A split second , a second , a few seconds , not sure or don't know/remember ???
Did you happen to notice if it got hot ????
Do you have another to try ????
Do you have an ESR meter available as your own or can you borrow one ????....

Post ALL info....THANKS.....

Later...Ron.M.... Cool

....
Veteran & Retired TV technician

(This post was edited by Ron.M on Dec 12, 2010, 6:51 PM)

dgentry516
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Dec 12, 2010, 7:45 PM

Post #33 of 84 (1547 views)
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Re: [Ron.M] Need Ron M [In reply to]	Can't Post

Ron

1) 12.77M and 19.50M
2) Yes....power on click...2-3 seconds...another click
3) NTE2331? Not sure when it crashed
4) I did not notice it get hot
4) My local store has NTE's, not sure if they have alternative
5) Yes I have a ESR meter.

Don

Ron.M
Veteran

Dec 12, 2010, 9:30 PM

Post #34 of 84 (1543 views)
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Re: [dgentry516] Need Ron M [In reply to]	Can't Post

dgentry516;....

12.77M and 19.50M indicates Q401 is good....

Lets temporarily go with the NTE 2331....

Reinstall Q401 back in exactly as it came out....
Coming off the primary of T401 is C408....
It should be near T401...
It's a small electrolytic cap....
4.7 mfd @ 160 vdc....
It will have a white stripe on one side...
That's the negative connection....
The other unmarked side is the positive connection....
This is a polarized cap & MUST be hooked up correctly or it's history...
On the board is a mark where the striped connection goes...
IF the cap is good or you get a new one , the stripe goes to that mark...
Check it for ESR & value....
Post specific readings ....

On the flyback (T402) pin #3 is D483...
Read ohms from the band end to chassis ground & post reading....
Also look for D463 coming off pin #8 thru R467...
Read ohms from the unmarked end (Opposite the band) to chassis ground....
Post readings.....

THANKS.... Sly

....

We may have to sacrafice a new NTE 2331 to determine fault....
I'll let you know....

Later...Ron.M.... Cool

....
Veteran & Retired TV technician

dgentry516
New User

Dec 12, 2010, 11:31 PM

Post #35 of 84 (1540 views)
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Re: [Ron.M] Need Ron M [In reply to]	Can't Post

Hey Ron

C408 6.2 (within range, I think)

Wasn't sure which probe to put on diode so...

D483
red probe on Band end - blk probe on ground 0.L
blk probe on Band end - red probe on ground 36.xx M and falling

D463
red probe on unmarked end - black on ground 8.49k
blk probe on unmarked end - red on ground 8.57k

Hope this makes sense.

Don

Ron.M
Veteran

Dec 13, 2010, 12:01 AM

Post #36 of 84 (1536 views)
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dgentry516;......

Quote

C408 6.2 (within range, I think)

Not my idea of "specific readings"....
6.2 WHAT ?????
Also what did the ESR meter show ????

Both diode readings are good....
Usually all readings of this type by techs I know & myself , we use the red (positive) probe on the diode ends & the black probe goes to chassis ground....
Same with voltage readings...

Later...Ron.M.... Cool

.....
Veteran & Retired TV technician

dgentry516
New User

Dec 13, 2010, 1:30 AM

Post #37 of 84 (1530 views)
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Re: [Ron.M] Need Ron M [In reply to]	Can't Post

I have "The Blue ESR Meter" made by the AnaTek Corporation.

A good capacitor will have a ESR less then the value on the chart.
http://www.jestineyong.com/?p=1314

Here is the meter.
http://www.electronicrepairguide.com/blue-esr-meter.html

Don

Ron.M
Veteran

Dec 13, 2010, 2:11 AM

Post #38 of 84 (1524 views)
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Re: [dgentry516] Need Ron M [In reply to]	Can't Post

dgentry516;.....

from one of your links;=>....

Quote

I have some Blue ESR Meter buyers found it difficult to understand the chart readout printed in front of the Blue ESR Meter.

SO do I & I'm a tech !!!!

6.2 (Whatever that means) seems like it's on the edge.....
See if your local guy can supply you with a new 4.7 mfd 160 vdc radial cap....
If you get it , compare the reading with the old one...
Let me know what you find out.....THANKS..... Sly

.....

Quote

Check it for ESR & value....

Now that we have an ESR (?) reading , do you have a meter that reads value , like mfd ????

Have a GREAT evening..... Smile

....

Later....(Monday)....Ron.M.... Cool

....
Veteran & Retired TV technician

dgentry516
New User

Dec 13, 2010, 3:52 AM

Post #39 of 84 (1520 views)
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Re: [Ron.M] Need Ron M [In reply to]	Can't Post

Ron,

I have a capacitance function on one of my meters. It read 4.47u on the 4.7uf 160v e-cap. The closest 4.7uf cap I had was rated 250v. For whatever its worth, it read 5.12u.

My understanding from "The ESR Blue Meter" was that I could take readings while its on the board, i.e. without removing it from the board. The above reading was read after I removed it from the board.

Don

Ron.M
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Dec 13, 2010, 6:45 PM

Post #40 of 84 (1515 views)
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dgentry516;.....

Details , details , details....
I keep forgetting to give you details...
My bad & I apologize.... Unsure

.....
I don't care what any manufacturer says about their ESR meter or cap checker...
ALWAYS remove the cap from the circuit....
Reason is that if (& this happens frequently) you have another cap in parallel , the meter will read that one also , giving you an erroneous & misleading reading...
Also if there's a low value resistor , coil , or transformer across the cap....
Obviously the 5.12 cap IS BAD....
You did the right thing...
I commend you.... Wink

.....

....

I suggest you get a new cap anyway (they're cheap) & a new NTE2331....
Check the new cap on your ESR meter & post result....

THANKS.... Sly

....

Later...Ron.M..... Cool

....
Veteran & Retired TV technician

dgentry516
New User

Dec 13, 2010, 7:43 PM

Post #41 of 84 (1511 views)
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Re: [Ron.M] Need Ron M [In reply to]	Can't Post

Ron,

Anything else I might get at the "candy" store while I am there? Any potential components I might need besides the cap and the NTE2331? BTW, what should the tolerance be when I measure a cap or anything for that matter? Is it a percentage? 10%?

Thanks, I really do appreciate your help. I'm learning on the fly.

Don

Ron.M
Veteran

Dec 13, 2010, 8:09 PM

Post #42 of 84 (1510 views)
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dgentry516;.....

Depending on the cost of the NTE2331's & the distance from your humble abode to the "candy" store , you might want to allow for a sacraficial lamb & get an extra NTE2331....

Quote

Any potential components I might need besides the cap and the NTE2331?

"Carnac The Magnificant" passed away many years ago , so I lost my ability to see the future thru him.... Wink

...
Seriously , at this time , no....

Quote

BTW, what should the tolerance be when I measure a cap or anything for that matter?

Usually tolerance is marked on the component....
On disc caps , it's a letter code...
On your smaller resistors , it's usually the last band's color...
With this cap , there's no worries about tolerance...
Any generic radial cap will work....
The one you're looking for will have a black body....
Temp is not critical...

Drive safely....

Later...Ron.M.... Cool

....
Veteran & Retired TV technician

dgentry516
New User

Dec 13, 2010, 11:38 PM

Post #43 of 84 (1503 views)
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Ron

Got 2 of the NTE2331. Here's what they had in e-cap's.
4.7mfd 250v
3.3mfd 160v
6.8mfd 160v

I bought all three. Will the 250v work? Others? Or do I need to order from a vendor online?

Don

jts1957
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Dec 14, 2010, 12:34 AM

Post #44 of 84 (1501 views)
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I punch in +80% / -20% to my Sencore cap tester for ALL electrolytics.

-------------------------
Location: Far, Far Away

dgentry516
New User

Dec 14, 2010, 12:39 AM

Post #45 of 84 (1498 views)
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Re: [jts1957] Need Ron M [In reply to]	Can't Post

"I punch in +80% / -20% to my Sencore cap tester for ALL electrolytics. "

You lost me there. Can you break it down for me?

Thanks

Ron.M
Veteran

Dec 14, 2010, 12:43 AM

Post #46 of 84 (1497 views)
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dgentry516;....

Use the 4.7mfd @ 250v....
It will work just fine....
Test it on that new razzle-dazzle ESR meter & tell me exactly what it reads....
FYI;...
The 3.3mfd is too low in value & will not work properly here...
The 6.8mfd is a bit too high in value but probably would work OK....
For now , lets stick to what came out of the set....

Later....Ron.M.... Cool

....
Veteran & Retired TV technician

jts1957
Veteran

Dec 14, 2010, 12:48 AM

Post #47 of 84 (1494 views)
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In Reply To

Ron,

Anything else I might get at the "candy" store while I am there? Any potential components I might need besides the cap and the NTE2331? BTW, what should the tolerance be when I measure a cap or anything for that matter? Is it a percentage? 10%?

Thanks, I really do appreciate your help. I'm learning on the fly.

Don

Most general purpose electrolytics from Digikey, for example, have a tolerance of +/-20%. When they fail, without "puffing or leaking," value will usually go down.

-------------------------
Location: Far, Far Away

Ron.M
Veteran

Dec 14, 2010, 12:58 AM

Post #48 of 84 (1491 views)
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Re: [jts1957] Need Ron M [In reply to]	Can't Post

jts1957;....

Not a problem.......
Thanks for the info.....

Later....Ron.M.... Cool

....
Veteran & Retired TV technician

dgentry516
New User

Dec 14, 2010, 1:21 AM

Post #49 of 84 (1488 views)
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Re: [Ron.M] Need Ron M [In reply to]	Can't Post

Ron this meter that I used yesterday is an Ideal 61-340. It has a capacitor function but I'm thinking that its not measuring the "Equivalent Series Resistance". Not really sure what it is doing.

Testing the Capacitance Function (for 61-340 / 61-342)
The meter measures capacitance by charging the capacitor with a known direct current, measuring the resultant voltage, and calculating the capacitance. If the same capacitance is measured on an impedance bridge, a different reading may result. This variance is likely to be greater at higher frequencies.

Using this meter the new and the old capacitor reads the same. Also using "The Blue ESR Meter" that I bought thinking it was an ESR meter, reads the same for both new and old.

Ideal Meter New-5.14 Old 5.12
Blue Meter New 6.0 Old 6.0

This is not the only project I want to work and learn on so if I need an ESR meter, which should I buy?

Again your help is appreciated.

Don

Ron.M
Veteran

Dec 14, 2010, 2:03 AM

Post #50 of 84 (1484 views)
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Re: [dgentry516] Need Ron M [In reply to]	Can't Post

dgentry516;...

The 61-340 is NOT checking the ESR.....
It is checking the value (mfd's) of the cap...

Quote

Blue Meter New 6.0 Old 6.0

Indicates that both caps are good....
Since you are more familiar with it , I'd keep it...

Quote

Ideal Meter New-5.14 Old 5.12

Indicates that your meter is reading off value....
Should read 4.7....
Try the other caps & see what they read....
(3.3 mfd & 6.8 mfd)

I'm downloading the info on your meter (61-340)...
It will take me awhile as I'm on sloooowww dial-up....
I'll have more info for you tomorrow....

I did find this for the 61-340:=>...

Range;=>...400.0n/4.000�/40.00� F
Accuracy;=>....�(3.0%+5)
That explains in part why the reading you are getting is New-5.14 Old 5.12....I THINK.... Unsure

.....

Later....Ron.M..... Cool

....
Veteran & Retired TV technician

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